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Forums › General › Off Topic › Should Bush get re-elected

Should Bush get re-elected
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Should Bush get re-elected?
Yes
64%
 64%  [ 22 ]
No
23%
 23%  [ 8 ]
Undecided
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Too young to care
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
Just plain don't care
8%
 8%  [ 3 ]
Total Votes : 34

Author Message
Jyro
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Joined: Mar 15, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 2:21 pm    Post subject:

alright...i must hand it to you SABO you are so true

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madgoat33
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 7:31 pm    Post subject:

SABO wrote:
Whethere I agree or disagree with the choices made by the PResident are beside the point in this post. What amazes me is the office of President is the servant of the people, and now the mass majority is ready to hang the man for basically giving them exactly what they asked for. We were attacked and the mass majority wanted something done about it, we found connections, whether they were right or not, and we wanted all those responsible held liable. Now the smoke clears and the mass populace begins to ridicule Bush as a war monger and a spin doctor. Had he said, no, we are not going to attack, etc, etc, etc he would have just as many critics, most of them the same people, saying he was too lax, too inactive, and Kerry's slogan would be to elect a president who will fight this war on the front line. Its American Politics, spinning stories and manipulating the masses is what they do, we ask, they give, this isn't a new game.

LOL"giving them what they asked for". I don't ever recall asking my government to make things up so they could have an excuse to go to war. He would not have had nearly as many critics if he hadnt' gone to war. Finally, "he killed thousands of his own people", i didn't see england or france rush over here when we we had thousands, maybe, MILLIONS of people enslaved, and were killing them like sheep, or when WE killed hundreds of thousands of people in the phillipines. Face it, all you people who say "saddam was evil, he killed thousands of people" need a reality check, we have killed PLENTY more innocent people and we havent' been attacked and put under martial law. Stop listening to all this retarded propaganda and wake up. Also, i am not some crazy ass liberal, i am more towards conservitive, but frankly i am tired of our mentally challenged president and our obsession with "terrorists".
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SABO
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:58 pm    Post subject:

madgoat33 wrote:
LOL"giving them what they asked for". I don't ever recall asking my government to make things up so they could have an excuse to go to war.

No, I don't thin that you did, nor that you would, but then again, you are not the "mass majority" that I spoke of in my post either.

As for the statements about the French and the English in the 1700's and on into the early part of the 19th century, this was not the issue nor the political climate now as it was then and the civil rights movement and the profound impact that it had was not an American political phenomonon (sp). It had ramifications and even started in Enland itself much through the teachings of the Wesley's, but still did not have the force to even be and issue that would have spurred international war. Somewhat of a comparison of apples to oranges there since the political and world climates have so little in common aside from oppression.

As for what has occurred in the last several months and now few years in the issue at hand, this is what the mass majority asked for. Post 9/11 America was screaming for vengeance and in the months of October and November Bush was criticized for not attacking soon enough. Now that same mass majority, and now this isn't everyone, is criticizing him for it. Did they get asked to make stuff up, of course not, but many times one will do foolish things in order to be able to appease that which importnat, for the president that which is important is the masses.

Personally, I think the idea of war is always unjustified. I thought it was wrong in attacking Afganistan and I thought it was wrong to attack Iraq, but I will not criticize one man as a war monger for giving the mob the vengeance that they asked for and now being criticized for not being able to stop a war machine that when unleashed simply can't be stopped on a dime. When you release the caged dragon you stand a chance of getting bit and the Bush administration certianly has, but it did so out of the request of the mass majority. Foucault said it best when talking about the dangers and the price to pay for living in a society that values personal rights and freedoms above all else (basically modern western civilization): He states that as we seek to preserve our self freedom and sense of self safety we find ourselves caught between the "towers of guilt and death." One must destroy the other in order to preserve the self-interest and then is left only to feel guilty for the actions.

Madgoat, I don't think that you asked for the war, I know many that didn't, but in the republic the mass makes the decision and that decision is seldom based on thought but on emotion and sentimantality. What i fear is that we are quickly coming to the point at which the only two sentiments left are guilt or worse yet, apathy.

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curly
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Joined: Mar 13, 2004
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 9:17 pm    Post subject:

we go in when we hav a clue that they hav "weapons" and fight to keep ALL of us safe by keeping the fighting out of the u.s.
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NKP82
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Joined: Sep 24, 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 11:19 pm    Post subject:

Okay, so we got are revenge on the terrorist in Afganistan, that was pretty much enough for me. But this Iraq conflict was not what I really wanted, but since we have a majority rule system, we went in anyways even though I liked it or not. Man I love and hate are governmental system, I guess if it was not the way it is nothing would get done.

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madgoat33
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Joined: Nov 01, 2003
Posts: 272

PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 2:39 pm    Post subject:

SABO wrote:
madgoat33 wrote:
LOL"giving them what they asked for". I don't ever recall asking my government to make things up so they could have an excuse to go to war.

No, I don't thin that you did, nor that you would, but then again, you are not the "mass majority" that I spoke of in my post either.

As for the statements about the French and the English in the 1700's and on into the early part of the 19th century, this was not the issue nor the political climate now as it was then and the civil rights movement and the profound impact that it had was not an American political phenomonon (sp). It had ramifications and even started in Enland itself much through the teachings of the Wesley's, but still did not have the force to even be and issue that would have spurred international war. Somewhat of a comparison of apples to oranges there since the political and world climates have so little in common aside from oppression.

As for what has occurred in the last several months and now few years in the issue at hand, this is what the mass majority asked for. Post 9/11 America was screaming for vengeance and in the months of October and November Bush was criticized for not attacking soon enough. Now that same mass majority, and now this isn't everyone, is criticizing him for it. Did they get asked to make stuff up, of course not, but many times one will do foolish things in order to be able to appease that which importnat, for the president that which is important is the masses.

Personally, I think the idea of war is always unjustified. I thought it was wrong in attacking Afganistan and I thought it was wrong to attack Iraq, but I will not criticize one man as a war monger for giving the mob the vengeance that they asked for and now being criticized for not being able to stop a war machine that when unleashed simply can't be stopped on a dime. When you release the caged dragon you stand a chance of getting bit and the Bush administration certianly has, but it did so out of the request of the mass majority. Foucault said it best when talking about the dangers and the price to pay for living in a society that values personal rights and freedoms above all else (basically modern western civilization): He states that as we seek to preserve our self freedom and sense of self safety we find ourselves caught between the "towers of guilt and death." One must destroy the other in order to preserve the self-interest and then is left only to feel guilty for the actions.

Madgoat, I don't think that you asked for the war, I know many that didn't, but in the republic the mass makes the decision and that decision is seldom based on thought but on emotion and sentimantality. What i fear is that we are quickly coming to the point at which the only two sentiments left are guilt or worse yet, apathy.

The REASON the american people WANTED to go to "war" with Iraq is because we were told they had weapons of mass destruction, not to mention all the media propaganda about saddam being "evil". It was QUITE ridiculas.
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proraptor8
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 5:39 pm    Post subject:

Madgoat acts if this is something new that happened...these kinds of things have been happening for years dood!

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madgoat33
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 7:51 pm    Post subject:

proraptor8 wrote:
Madgoat acts if this is something new that happened...these kinds of things have been happening for years dood!

America USED to be VERY isolationistic, up to WWII, then we suddenly decided we were the worlds police-men. 20 years later we are in vietnam, fighting just because we don't want another country to go communist. Another 20 or so years and we are giving weapons to future "terrorists"(afghanastan) just so the soviet union doesn't take control of that country. 11 years after that we are now in afghanastan fighting a war on "terror", against weapons that we partially gave them. 2 years after that we are in Iraq, because "they have WMD"s, and Saddam is EVIL". Granted, i did miss some things, but i got MOST of the major conflicts(excluding korea), and from the end of WWII years it seems all the *major* things get closer and closer together, a pattern most are not partically fond of. Frankly proraptor, the point of my post was not WHEN this has been happening, but that it is happening now, and that is FACT. I know presidents lie, and the government doesn't always tell the truth, but usually they do a HELL of a lot better of a job covering it up at the very least. The Bush cabinet, on the other hand, doesn't appear to really care what the american people think, and i am STILL in awe that the "Patriot" Act got passed, we GAVE our freedom away because we are so afraid.
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SABO
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:21 am    Post subject:

Actually I was reading over some old news articles from a year ago and the WMD's were NOT the primary reason that the Bush administration gave for going to war in Iraq, that was simply the one that the press focused on. The primary reason given was to usurp an oppressive leader and to offer a chance of freedom to the people there. So if it is not the responsibility of the free to free the oppressed are we to assume that because we are born within the bounds of this country that we deserve some special priviledge that the rest of the world does not? Doesn't sound isolationist, it sounds elitist.

And no, America has always been involved in the conflicts of the globe, as mediator, in support through finance or thought arms or supplies. We wrongly avoided WW1 and WW2 for too long and only got involved in those conflicts when there was immediate threats upon our own shores. This attitude of live and let live with no interaction allowed for the Nazi party to grow to its power and ravage Europe and had it not been for the underground resistance of France and the sacrifices of England that same terror would have crossed the seas and moved into the US next. Evil left unchecked will spread.

Now don't hear me wrong, I still don't think that war is the appropriate way to counteract those forces that threaten the lives of humanity, but neither is silence

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dannibal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:21 am    Post subject:

SABO wrote:

Now don't hear me wrong, I still don't think that war is the appropriate way to counteract those forces that threaten the lives of humanity, but neither is silence

Well SABO, you had me until that point Laughing
I believe Pacifism is a wondeful Philosophical point of view, but not a practical one. Until man is a more enlightened animal, our Country will still need it's citizens to strap on a helmet, pick up a weapon, and defend against those who are not so "enlightened".
When Diplomatic and Economic sanctions do not work, war is a proven and efficient engine of change.
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