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Forums › General › Off Topic :: Archives › Occupy or not? :: Archived

Occupy or not?
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63VDub
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:40 am    Post subject: Occupy or not?

My brother and I were discussing the OWS situation this evening, and I would kinda like to get you guys feel of it. I know this can be a very touchy subject, so I ask that in phrasing your responses, you take care not to attack anyone personally.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:04 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

I can't really comment. I have my own views, but I work for the DOD, so anything I say, quickly gets tracked back to me. Mixed feelings all around.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:08 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

I don't really know enough about the situation to make a comment on it. Let me do some research, and get back to you.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:15 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

things may need to change, but this is definitely not the way to make it happen.

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fungunzbuff
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:19 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

I was just about to say that.

I agree with almost everything they are protesting about. But the way they are going about it is childish.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

Lots of stuff needs to change (**cough** "super committee" **cough**).

I love the irony of a lot of the occupiers though. They dont like the government and their rules, yet they basically recreate their own government, with most of the same rules mind you, at the occupy encampments.

All of the crimes at the camps are not helping either....

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

I listened to a lot of the Planet Money on NPR and those gentlemen that produce that segment seem 'right on the money'. They did a few different segments in This American Life about the banking industry whole subprime mess and the associated bailout. Now, I know that NPR can be a little bit left leaning, but I believe they stated the facts plainly in a lot of cases.

Derivatives and the sub-prime thing: absolutely maddening. When it comes down to it, the banks were basically gambling with money in their possession.

Do I think the protesters going about it the right way? They did it right for the first week I guess. They've got people thinking about the problem with the banking industry again. But I think they've done all they can do for the discussion right now. Continuing to occupy a public area for an elongated amount of time without an actual agenda, there's a word for that - bum.

What they really need to do is occupy their congressman's mailbox and email inbox. I know there are a lot of special interests and lobbysts that prevent honest legislation from making it through congress, but that's the way our government changes things in this country and I'll abide by that.

And really, I think everyone should just take their money to a credit union. Vote with their dollars.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

Protesting, living like a bum in a park, lashing out at regular people, causing businesses to close up, fighting with police, doing drugs, and crapping on police cars does not change a thing.

This is a terrific country where you actually have a chance to succeed if you take advantage of it. There are many thing about corporate America and government (in general) that are a problem. However, changing those things does not come about easily. Infact, I don't think that change truly ever can happen. We are in the hole too deap. You can't dig up stupid....

Now I wrote a bunch more, but I got a little off topic so I decided to save it for another day. To sum up though, this OWS thing is simply stupid to me. You cannot change things this way.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:35 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

I could probably write an essay about this, but I will reduce it to a few bullet points.

1. I understand that these occupy groups feel that they are standing up for most of the nation, (probably not quite 99%) but most Americans depend on the jobs created by the so called 1%. Even if I work for Wells Fargo or Chevron, I need to go to work. I have mouths to feed and bills to pay. If you prevent me from doing that, I am going to hate you. Same thing goes if you start a traffic jam. I have read from many sources that small, local businesses are suffering from lost business because occupy groups are discouraging customers, unintentionally or otherwise. Most people want to see stuff change in the government and the economy, but most people also want to get on with their life. They want to go home after work and drink a beer and sit in front of the television.

2. Occupy Oakland is joke. As I have been saying from when they showed up in Oakland, these guys are not here to protest anything; they are here to fight with the cops and break stuff. Granted, Mayor Jean Quan handled it about as badly as can be, but the Oakland group was doomed from the start, battery against members of the media, sexual assaults, hassling city employees, and now a murder. Plus, shouting down the mayor and the city counsel when they try to negotiate (haha) with you does not make your arguments for free speech look good. It was interesting to see the columnist who write for the local newspaper switch sides from supporting the protesters to calling for the removal of the group.

3. People should not live in campsites in parks. Hoovervilles are a thing of the past. This spreads disease. I am not a doctor, but I think that is a bad thing. It is not unreasonable for the city to want to have the parks clear at night. Nothing good (read: legal) ever happens in parks after dark.

4. Central leadership is a must. I might agree with some of the ideas behind this disorganized mob, but I don't know. I like the idea of campaign finance reform and protecting the environment. I don't think corporations are people. But without leadership, there is no way to articulate goals. This is one the things that cracks me up about the occupy oakland movement. They would not commit to non-violence when negotiating with the mayor. The reasoning was that the people representing the group said they could not speak for every individual in the group. I understand that this angered many people within the group and rightfully so. With centralized leadership, the occupy people could disassociate themselves with the anarchists and the people who just want to cause trouble. I also thought that the Oakland general strike was pretty funny too. The way I understand a strike is that you have a list of requests that need to be met. So you had a strike? What do you want? Oh, that right. You have not made that clear.

5. People get hurt when you employ non-violent protest. Quit belly aching about it. As I understand how non-violent protest works, the protesters practice whatever non-violent protest they plan to and then deal with the consequences willingly. The purpose of this is to invoke the sympathy of citizens and other around the world and make the government or whatever look bad. In the fashion that Gandhi practiced nonviolence, the protesters frequently got the bejesus beaten out of them. Don't believe me? Look up the Dharasana Satyagraha Being pepper sprayed and hit with beanbags might not be so bad after all. Law enforcement is in a lousy situation here too. They are charged with upholding the law and keeping the peace; at times, this involves using force. The city government says clear the streets, park school campus, etc and they are stuck doing so, even though they might very well agree with the protesters, who are using nonviolence to attempt to disrupt society. The cops are facing pension and pay cuts too. They are overworked, understaffed and it seems like getting flak for doing anything. The city's response to these protests and people living in the parks needs to be consistent also. For example, they have cleared Frank Ogawa plaza twice now, saying that their will not be a camp put back up. I don't know if there is one their now, but they certainly did not stick with it the first time.

6. Nothing is going to change overnight. Yeah, okay, it is a fact that alot of what happened in 2008 can be traced back to Wall Street, but if you want to really do something about it, go picket the Capitol Building. Those guys are supposed to work for you too.

7. Nobody takes a bunch of hippies sitting in a drum circle smoking dope seriously. So if you want to make a point, lose the drums and the marijuana.

8. I am waiting to see where all these people go when it starts to snow across the country.

9. Your freedom of speech ends where mine begins. If I don't want to be shouted at and would rather be left alone, than that is my right. That is also the business of the government to to protect my rights as well as yours. There are limitations to the first amendment and I believe that the Occupy group has found them and in many cases, exceeded them.

I probably have more thoughts, but this is just what occurs to me right now.

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:23 am    Post subject: Re: Occupy or not?

I'm pretty Anti-banking/Government and i'll leave it at that. But i will just say, The idea was good, but they lost steam. Now violence and crime is the new push for Occupy.

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